Actor-Musician versus triple threat or even quadruple threat

[Hecouldshine]

My dd and ds have enjoyed their training in singing dance and drama for the last 6 years, but are improving in their musical instruments, which they have been learning for the last 3. Now they both want to start the piano as a second instrument. I can see that they are never going to be able to catch up with children who have made it to junior music conservatoire levels, but they have potential and good musicality, and I wondered how far they could/should push the music at this stage.

I know a lot of children on here do music to a high level, including at conservatoire levels, so are there any parents with experience of their children doing all 4?; the drama singing acting and musical instruments and planning a career in one of these fields or alternatively stepping back from the training in one or some of them in order to concentrate on one? Surely something has to give (apart from our finances paying for it all)? Does it mean that they risk being mediocre at everything and really good at nothing?

I went to watch Chess the musical 2 weeks ago, in Glasgow, and discovered the existence of “actor-musicians”, (a fair number of whom are Rose Bruford college graduates). Now I could see from watching them that a lot of the ensemble of Chess DIDN’T have dance training but I didn’t think Craig Revel Horwood’s choreography did them any favours, they circled around the central platform looking messy much of the time. The performers with a more traditional musical theatre background were better movers, and were more watchable, but then they weren’t playing cellos, violins, brass instruments etc (with the exception of David Erik the Arbiter, who plays a trumpet).

There is an interview with Craig Revel Horwood in the souvenir programme (an interview conducted by The Stage’s Mark Shenton) in which he talks about why he used actor-musicians. He says “I need to find the most talented people I can get, and they have to be highly skilled as well, in playing musical instruments, acting singing and dancing. They have to be above Grade 8 music. I also run the company as an ensemble – the principals have to play minor roles as well, and play the cymbals, triangles and drums when needed. Most of the cast play at least 3 instruments each. Everyone is engaged in the show the whole time.”

He concludes by saying “It’s been difficult to find people who can dance, too, but they do exist – we just had to hunt a long time! We’re beginning to exhaust the supply of suitable people – maybe we need to get some more schools up and running to churn a few more out!”

Please post if your ds/dds are managing to play musical instruments to a high standard as well as studying drama/singing or dance, or if they have had to drop something, or compromise on something, or if their interests and plans changed from, or to, music as a career. Would really value people's thoughts and experiences

[Welsh Mum]

I too have heard that actor musicians are more sought for. I saw a production of Guys and Dolls a while ago where most of the cast played instruments as well, there was no orchestra. I only know of the RB course which is specificaly to train them, I suppose you could also do a MT course and keep up the instrumnet training as well.

[pg]

I do think that being able to play a portable musical instrument (or two!) is a useful extra skill and will increase an actor's employability. A number of small scale (but still very reputable) touring theatre companies really value actors with instrumental skills and larger companies like the NT and RSC often have music in their shows so musical skills on a CV certainly won't hurt your chances!

In my limited experience, it is not necessary for instrumental skills to be at conservatoire standard (or any where near this) in order to have value for an actor. I think what is valued is adaptability and an ability to pick up tunes very quickly. Decent sight-reading skills are useful too. I know a lot of very talented musicians and, a bit like talented sportsmen and women, if you have talent and experience in one area this will help you to pick things up quickly in another.

My experience is not so much in the Musical Theatre field, more in the straight acting "plays with music" field. In this area, being able to hold a tune, move confidently (or dance) and play an instrument will often be needed and valued.

If I were offering advice to actors who wanted to have useful extra musical skills, it would be to master portable musical instruments - perhaps one to as high a standard as possible and a few others that you knew you could always get a tune out of!

My dd is a very talented singer and plays a couple of musical instruments to a reasonable level. She's not a bad dancer and she's a very competent actor. She's decided she doesn't want to pursue a performance career despite a place at music college! I certainly won't be pushing her to do so as it's really only something to pursue if you are absolutely determined to do it. Hopefully she will get a lot of pleasure from music as a hobby and can earn some money doing something a bit more certain and sensible!(Someone in the family needs to pursue a sensible career ).

[Fruitcake]

DS trained from the age of 3 in dance, drama etc, at the same time learning the violin, clarinet and piano at various stages.

He did a bit of theatre/tv etc up to the age of 11, and it had always been the dance and drama he had put all his real concentration/effort and dreams into!

However, at the age of 11 he bought himself a drum-kit, sat behind it and declared "This is where I belong!".

Consequently, he abandoned all his dance/drama training, as well as giving up his piano studies,in favour of learning to play the drums. He then said something along the lines of "I've always known I was born to be on the stage and thought it was as an actor, but now I realise it's as a drummer".

He now has his heart set on a career as a professional drummer.

However, his performance training etc has not been completely wasted, as whenever he's performing in a percussion ensemble or in a band, he somehow draws the eye as he is a natural performer and can't help 'putting across' whatever he feels in the music. This has been recognised by many people and I am sure will make a lot of difference once he comes to audition for bands etc when he's a bit older.

He has never completely discounted the idea of acting, and says he would consider acting roles if they included some drumming!!! He also quite fancies the idea of a stint in the cast of "Stomp"!

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that sometimes young people have to make a long journey with massive detours to find where they truly want to be, but the journey is part of the growing process and helps them find who they really are. DH sometimes looks back on all the money we spent on DS' dance/drama classes etc and groans, but I believe that without that he wouldn't be such a good, committed and focussed musician and wouldn't have that extra 'something' that people recognise but can't put their finger on.

So, Hecouldshine, I would say let them develop their musicianship as much as they are able. Who knows where it may lead!

[pg]

That's a lovely post Fruitcake

Glad your son has found his feet and knows what he wants to do.

[paulears]

I suspect the word we're looking for is multiskilling. I'm rather proud that I am competent in many disciplines, but truly excellent in none! I suspect that this has got me far more work than those who dedicate themselves to a single strand, or maybe two? The concept of actor-musician isn't new really - Return to the Forbidden Planet was the first one I was aware of - and this needed proper acting and singing skills first, and then the ability to play multiple instruments as a second requirement. Many of the cast could play 3 or 4 instruments - and conservatoir/diploma standard is not a requirement - in fact, the kind of musical skills developed at that level often make it more difficult to be a multi-instrumentalist. I worked with a fella recently and he played the clarinet. The sound man asked him to play something, so he could 'tweak'. The musician couldn't play without music - he'd never learnt to improvise, or just do a musical doodle.

I suspect the Fruitcakes' drummer son may well be onto a good thing, career wise. Reading drummers are rare. Non-reading drummers are 10 a penny. The readers get the work. ironically, I paid for drum lessons for my youngest for many years, and in the end, he could play stuff that I wasn't capable of helping him with - just too complicated. However, he's now discovered he really is good at stage management, and did panto, living in digs for 10 weeks at 20. He obviously impressed the production company, because he's been on a tour bus going all over with a show visiting theatres, and when that finishes, he's contracted to do a Shakespeare tour. Not a drum in sight! I've had a panic call from a production company who cannot find a reading drummer - but Mike can't do it. If he really fancies percussion - and he's also had experience on a tuned instrument - maybe he'd be interested in being a tuned percussionist - Xylophone, glock, vibes and marimbas are very much in demand.

Strictly speaking I'm a bass player - although I was really a cellist when I was a kid - but I can hold my own on sax, clarinet, flute and even a bit of keyboards - Grade wise? Probably 8 on bass clef, and 6/7 on the others - but that's fine for paying work. A bit of effort and I could get them up to 8, I suppose - but that involves a bit more effort.

Don't forget that many performing arts people also end up teaching in schools and colleges - and musical skills are really handy there - music and perf arts often being the same department.

[Hecouldshine]

I read about the Guys and Dolls production using actor musicians on a musicals forum somewhere Welsh Mum. Would have liked to see it. But what was the standard of dance like? Think that is where the RB course falls down, as far as I can see. The brief CVs in the programme for Chess were interesting. Some of the actor musicians had done totally unrelated degrees first –like anthropology at the LSE before going to Guildford, or modern languages at Cambridge before going to Central. A lot had done a music degree before doing musical theatre/drama training etc.

PG, fruitcake and Paulears, I really appreciate your postings about you and your children’s experiences. It’s very interesting to see what paths they/you have chosen and to hear what has been useful and what has lead on to other things. Useful to think about the portable instrument thing pg. One of ds’s dance teachers plays the harp for wedding receptions, which is a lucrative side line for her, but maybe not very portable. Your daughter sounds extremely talented, as well as having her feet on the ground about pursuing a sensible career.

I guess drums aren’t very portable either fruitcake but lovely to hear of your ds talent and plans. I agree that the performing experience shows. I had noticed that my 2 look just that little bit more professional playing their instruments in public compared to those who don’t have the other performance backgrounds. I wonder if drumming requires an exceptional musicality and feeling for rhythms that was what drew him to dance previously?
Interestingly one of my friends at uni had been a professional drummer, in a well known band, before coming to medical school. Just shows you can do anything with drumming

Thank you for the concept of multi skilling paulears. Really helpful to hear the sort of level/grades that you mention and the idea of more than one instrument, and that teaching needs people with multi skills. Really interesting to hear about your son’s pathway from drumming to stage management.What do you mean by a reading drummer? Is it one that can read music? It sounds like jamming sessions to help pick up some improvising skills might be an idea for my 2?

Really enjoying this discussion and hearing about what varying pathways people go through before deciding, or not, on performing careers! Think I will just support my 2 with their music without thinking it has to lead to/achieve anything definite - thanks fruitcake

[paulears]

Reading drummers - large numbers of drummers cannot read music. This is a severe disadvantage, perhaps more than on other accompaniment instruments - because the rhythm section are so important. Plenty of very good drummers simply can't play in a band, backing a singer, for instance. Where I live, the entire coast from Essex through to North Norfolk are 'infested' with holiday centres of all shapes and sizes. Many of these still have a resident band who play for the dancing - and this is still what they call social dancing, or strict tempo - so it's still foxtrots, rumbas, waltzes etc - and a rock an roll drummer has real trouble. Reading drummers are in real demand. If somebody is ill, or needs a night off - you cannot replace them with a drummer who can't read music. Play for fun lessons don't generally teach reading music, they teach styles and 'feel'. Very often, when a bigger name turn up at a venue like a Warners or a Haven, they hand out a bit of music for their 'soundcheck'. In many cases, all they need to hear is the band playing what's on the pad. After 30 seconds or so, they'll stop the band, and explain they don't need to rehearse any more, because they're happy the band are proper musicians.

Because I'm busy most of the year, I can never commit to odd nights, because better paying work always seems to come along - but I do the occasional dep job when the phone rings. The conversation goes like this
"Can you dep for us tomorrow on bass"
"Yep, what do I need?"
"Just the guitar, the amplifiers here"

What happens next is you just turn up, they give you the music in a folder, already in the correct order - and you take your seat behind the closed velvet tabs on stage, while the bingo is on, usually. You go twang and ask if it's loud enough. "Up a bit" twang. "yep says the MD or leader - that's about right".

Open the folder. Lights go on, tabs open and you play on the one, two three, four..

Did it once last October, and after fifteen minutes I looked up for the first time and discovered Father Christmas - Tinsel and Turkey with fake snow. Two 45 minute sets, and you go home. Pay is pretty good for an in to out of less than two hours. In my area, it's a close knit community of musicians - as an ex-music and performing arts teacher, it's very strange to be in a band playing when you look around and discover some of the dancers, singers, band and technical people are old students - and you're now working for them!

The musicians union is still pretty strong - a zillion times stronger the Equity, who do nothing for people starting out in the business - so musicians tend to get set rates, depending on the job - and very often these rates are better than the performers on stage - sometimes double! They get set breaks, with overtime if their hours go up, and extra pay for certain types of show. Reading music is usually the key - if you can read, you are useful - if you can't, don't bother. For actor-musicians, this isn't quite so important - but it's a bit like being a dancer with no ballet or tap - you can still dance, but you've limited yourself right out of certain jobs - or for certain choreographers?

It's a bit similar with actor/singers. Being able to read, or at least, follow music is a very useful skill - especially when working in rehearsal with the MD on harmonies. I'm very firmly of the opinion that having many strings to their bows is a sensible thing for all people who want to work in the performing arts. There's too much luck involved to put limits on yourself.

I'd also go as far as suggesting that actors really need to consider technical/stage management roles too. From the producers perspective, if a production needs an extra actor for one or two scenes, can they actually afford it? One popular solution is the acting ASM - very often this role will be a luvvy doing technical, or a tech, doing acting. Neither derogatory terms although many people hate them. It's common to see members of stage management on stage, in costume - or often in my kind of shows, on stage in blacks doing the underwater UV scenes, or doing the complex flying of performers. In one panto I did a few years ago, the two ASMs covered the quacking goose - a big part as it happened, and the brief one scene King of Gooseland - apart from being sundry guards and of course, inside elephants and chinese lions in another panto, and even looking after an animatronic raven sharing scenes with the evil queen. You really need actor types for these roles - script work and even choreography are involved.

Performers are often very good at technical things when they have an impact on the 'flow' of a show. Dancers, in particular make excellent lighting people if they try, because they have empathy with the music, knowing exactly when to do things - sometimes technical people have no feel at all, and these people are hard work.

[Welsh Mum]

Re Guys and Dolls, the show was excellent (and had very positive reviews) but you are right HCS, the dancing wasn't as good. It was OK but not on a par with other productions I've seen. However, the insrument playing did put a whole new perspective on something I have seen many times before. I agree about the RB course not having dance is limiting. There is a review in the Stage this week of The Vaudevilleans which uses actor musicians as well.

As far a reading music is concerned, I think its a huge advantage for all singers. Classical singers can all do it as its part of their training, but my DD is studying MT and finds it really useful as well, makes learning new songs, harmonies etc much easier.

Its sounds as if your children are very talented and doing all the right things

[Hecouldshine]

Thanks for the further replies paulears and Welsh Mum

It is amazing how well the musician's union does for its members compared to Equity. Sounds like it is well worth performers having the musician skills to provide extra income. It surpises me that so many drummers can't read music

Welsh Mum thanks for your comments My two haven't got their singing sight reading nailed yet Read the Stage review of Vaudevilleans....wasn't particularly great was it I got the impression that their movement/choreography was the weak link again

[Fruitcake]

This has been a really interesting thread.

DS can read drum music to a very high standard, but isn't so good with ordinary music!!! He is having theory lessons to improve this side of things!

His drum tutor is brilliant, and at some point during each lesson he gives him a session/band score to sight read which is really good practice for him. He's a very lucky young man, as he is able to read drum music but can also improvise extremely well too. In fact, at a recent music residential weekend he played for 3 different ensembles/groups with little or no rehearsal and did a great job!

He has his 16th birthday in a couple of months, and has asked for a ukulele! He had a go on one at that same weekend and fell in love with it! I suppose that's quite portable, so could be another little string to his bow!! Just made me laugh when I asked him what he wanted - most 16 year old boys want a new phone/i-pod/games console/games etc!

[paulears]

Th sad thing was when my son was doing his GCSEs, his music teacher didn't even know you could write down drum music!

There's a nice tale about Phil Collins - he couldn't read music, but wanted to play with a big band, so he had to teach himself - and once he could do it, he did a big band season.

[Fruitcake]

I'm not surprised about the music teacher, paulears! I don't think many of them know much about drumming, to be honest. DS' certainly doesn't!

Great story about Phil Collins - will pass that one on to DS!

[paulears]

A reading drummer (or any musician, to be honest) can get £50-70 a session as a dep in the holiday industry. For the money, they may have to be in there for maybe 4 hours, and play for perhaps 90-180 minutes - usually in 45 min blocks. Do a cruise, and you'll probably do 4 or 5 hours a day, 6 days a week, get all your food and accommodation for maybe £300 or so - maybe a lot more on some cruise ships. Many of my old students have done this for a year or two. They always say it's time to leave when you berth in Barbados, and can't be bothered to get off!

If you can't read music - you don't get these jobs. Same as in the pantomime area - I wouldn't be able to employ a musician who can't read music. Without doubt, musicians are finding work harder to get as they're an easy target for cost reduction - but at the same time, there are less people leaving school and college who can read music, so at the moment, music is still a good career choice.

[nextinline]

I always go on the premise that if the kids enjoy it and we have the time, energy and/or money to do it then they can. My ds learnt piano for a bit as well as dancing, singing and acting, then took up drums for fun. My dd is still learning piano and is taking exams in it, but plays the clarinet for fun (I wouldn't let her do both as she does so much dancing it would bankrupt me and wouldn't be fair on my other children). I think kids who are good are singing and/or dancing are often musical as well. However, I think there is a tendency for kids who are good at lots of things to forget that they need downtime too. My dd would do everything if I let her but I know she would burn herself out and be grumpy tired all the time. Sometimes less is more. After all whether they go on or not within the profession if there is not quality of life then it is all for nothing. Good luck in whatever you choose to do.