is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

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Flosmom
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is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by Flosmom »

I've been having some interesting conversations with The Arts Council recently about the requirement for children to live within the M25 in order to be allowed to audition for roles in London.

I know my girls aren't the only ones who have fallen foul of this arbitrary rule, so I thought I'd ask other NAPMs to share their experience. This will help me to explain that it's not just me having a sudden rush of blood to the head - there are lots of kids who could reasonably travel to and/or perform in London but just don't get the chance.

Either post here or PM me if you prefer.

It would be helpful to know whereabouts you live, what your travel arrangements and time would be, how your DC could continue their education relatively uninterrupted and anything else that you think might be of interest.

Thanks

Deb x
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by obsteve »

hi Deb,

Having posted that Manchester job a few months ago, I initially felt guilty stipulating "Manchester only", but it still became apparent how far people are willing to go to get their kids work. I mean really far!

I know there are some extremely talented kids outside the magic circle of the M25, but there are enough inside of it to fulfil all of the work hundreds of times over.

It might not be right to arbitrary make a rule about the M25, but I understand it, as I would feel worse making children and parents travel miles to an audition

Flo and Pandy's DVDs are in the post btw :)
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riverdancefan
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by riverdancefan »

I know exactly where you are coming from Deb, but I do agree with Steve's points. (in fact I applied for something with him via KCCP and got the "you live too far" answer :D ,) and he is right, there are plenty of local kids who could fill his roles. My DS would have done a good job for sure, but never got the chance to audition - reverse M25 logic.

I do see many more jobs posted these days, based in the North, and with Salford and Media City, that can only improve I hope. :-k there are more voice-over and radio drama opportunities than ever before.

As we know it's not just the boundary business, it's the height, look, braces, just about anything that excludes so many talented children from a part they could play equally as well as or in some cases maybe better as children who are cast and had an opportunity to audition because of where they lived....harsh but true.

There is alot of touring going on with big productions I noticed, The King and I , South Pacific, Oliver etc - all giving local kids the chance to shine.
And plain fact is, with alot of castings they are just after school kicks out, sometimes I have to get DS maybe half an hour earlier from school as we are about 40 mins from central London, but if you were coming from Newcastle? - it's ALOT longer and I for one don't like taking him out of school early for castings.

DS recently had a big disappointment with something fab in the West End that he was ultimately felt to be living too far away from (we are 5 mins from the high speed to St Pancras), we live near Sittingbourne in North Kent and are STILL excluded :lol: :lol: Agent tried her very best, but it was a no-deal ultimately

It's unfair, as many things are in this game, and I don't think it will change in the forseeable future ( at least if it does out children will be adult actors.)
West end work is difficult, poorly paid mostly. I was actually quite relieved as the practicalities would have been enormous and I am a working Mum in a family struggling to make ends meet..not for us the luxury of boarding, chaperones etc - it would have been a bit of a nightmare...multiply that cost threefold maybe for children living a good way from London, add into that loss of schooling....

for TV work I wonder if it the sheer impracticallity of numbers casting? - castings are busy enough as it is without 100's of children from far and wide, the process would be days longer and financially probably wouldn't make sense.
Last edited by riverdancefan on Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Flosmom
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by Flosmom »

Do you know, when I first joined the job market back in the 1970s it was often said that employers didn't need to consider women for jobs (especially higher-paid career jobs) because there were plenty of men able to do them. Ditto ditto ditto other excluded groups.

Just sayin....

I think we've moved on and accept that exclusions should be based on objective and relevant criteria, rather than arbitrary rulings. Arbitrary rulings which exclude individuals from equality of access create institutional discrimination, don't they?

And you're absolutely right that its unlikely to change - especially if the behaviours and the institutionalised beliefs that support them go unchallenged. Lets face it, we could still be living in a society without any civil rights if people hadn't been prepared to stick their heads above the parapet. Tollpuddle Martyrs, Sufffragettes, the Lawrence family... OK, this issue isn't in that league, but big issues are fed by multiple little ones.

Try making the statement 'children from outside the M25 will not be considered' but substituting the terms 'women' 'people with disabilities' 'black people' or 'gay people' for 'children from outside the M25' and see how offensive it sounds.

Yes it makes the casting director's job trickier, but nobody promised that doing things right and doing things fairly would be easy, did they? As an employer, making adjustments to enable people with disabilities to participate in work and accommodating maternity leave can be very tricky, but I wouldn't dream of not doing it.

My conversations with The Arts Council probably won't make a shred of difference for Flo, but I'm hard wired to challenge social injustice so I'm hoping I might make a difference for someone else. The Arts Council is very keen to ensure equality of access to the arts too, especially for young people, so it's a very interesting conversation to be part of.

Thanks to everyone who has sent me specific experiences, I'm sure they'll be helpful.

And we're looking forward to getting the DVDs, especially the girls' dad who wasn't able to be at the premiere with us.

Deb x
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by riverdancefan »

well I agree with you, and good luck on trying to get the status quo changed, as it clearly is unfair and I suspect that those of us who live outside London at some point, sometime have been on the receiving end of it

I was only trying to point out that there are opportunities for children all over the country and that these arbitrary boundaries are applied everywhere to limit applications and submissons, not offend you in any way!

and we in the South are just as discriminated against for castings in the North, it works both ways and is unfair both ways

are you saying that you believe no-one casting anything with children should be able to put any limitations on distance from home ever?....be interested to hear Jo Hawes views on this..and also Paulears too

and on that note - I am bowing out gracefully
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by mathsmum »

there is another side to this

we are within the M25 - master m was in 'mary poppins', who make no such rule, and for the 6 months he and his partner were the only 'within the M25' children, they were supposed to be available the whole time - no day trips away etc. yes, of course we did,very occasionally, and weren't caught - but it could have been awkward, and we really did have to cut our social/family life right down

it wasn't made a stipulation when he was 'tall boy' in billy, but he did get 'called up' in a couple of emergencies, as the first call - kids living further out were not expected to drop everything and go in

and on 'cast of thousands' ads, where kids seemed to be called in from all over to keep various agencies happy, london kids still have to get up at the crack of dawn, as they get the earliest call to wardrobe and make-up

it is not analogous to being female, black or gay - where you live is a choice - to continue the analogy - if you worked in an office, would you then expect to start earlier or take more overnight on-call duties if you lived nearer the office?

there is a point that it should be speed and ease of journey rather than proximity that matters - but again, we have 3 good public transport routes into london, before we need to think of reaching for a car key - the day we can't get in, neither can the audience
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by Flosmom »

This is really helpful, thanks.

I agree that it's important that the kids who are considered are actually able to fulfil the commitment. So what are the actual, logical requirements?

It seems to me that the most limiting requirement is the ability to get to the theatre at relatively short notice if their counterpart is unable to be there. This would seem to be a harder commitment to fulfil than just being there on a planned night, so maybe this is the defining factor. Does that sound fair?

Although this is a 'how long is a piece of string' question, what sort of notice time would be reasonable? Should performers be able to get from home to stage in - say - less than 1 hour? (that would discount most of outer London for West End productions) 2 hours? 3 hours?

Is there a difference between lead roles and ensemble? I guess the Mary Poppins roles were Jane and Michael. The show can't go on without them. So it would seem reasonable to require all performers to be able to travel in at short notice, wouldn't it? That would solve mathsmum's experience of being unfairly 'on call'. Yet as far as I'm aware the stipulations for lead roles are less stringent than for ensemble - does that make sense?

I know that Shrek has kids on standby, so that alternates don't have to be called in when it's not their scheduled performance. Does that work well?

And it seems important to have more than one means of transport so if the trains are out you can get the bus and if the bus isn't running you can drive. How many different transport options should there be? And is it different inside London than outside? For example, London relies heavily on the Tube and if the tube is struggling for some reason it's almost impossible to get anywhere by road as they get congested very quickly.

I'm aware of some kids who have alternative bases in Central London. If this is the case, should travel to/from the London base be the defining factor, rather than home? Assuming that education isn't disrupted (but that's a matter for the licensing LEA rather than the theatre, isn't it?)

And yes, I do think that the 'rules' should be applied fairly to all venues, not just London, but as far as I'm aware venues outside London aren't as likely to place blanket restrictions anyway.

Interesting, isn't it?

Deb x
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by emi's mum »

Hi Deb
An interesting debate. Not sure how much I can add however I will have a go as we can shed some light on the stand-by situation. Indeed Shrek do have 2 standbys one of whom is in the theatre at every show. They are there as an emergency cover so that if one of the girls went off for any reason in the hour before the show goes up then they would go on instead. If the company manager knows a child is not able to perform in advance say if they call in the morning to say they are ill then another child from a different team will be called in instead. They need to make sure the cover is always there in case of emergency. We have been called in one one occasion to cover illness. I know also at Matilda you will always have 2 of the girls in the building at any one time...one to perform and one to standby.
The point about living further out but having a London base doesn't really work for them as the child still has to attend their own school while performing. If you lived so far that you would have to stay in London for 3 nights then school would be a problem and 3 days would be missed. It's hard work doing 3 nights in a row and going to school throughout the day if you're not getting home until say 1 or 2 am because you have a much longer journey also leaving school so early because you know it will take 2 hours to get to the theatre on time. It's enough of a struggle living an hour away getting home late and going to school for 8am (my dd starts school this early) before headed up to town to do it all again.
However even though we live the allowed distance we are not within the M25 so I think the debate for actual time it takes to get to the West End (rather than a main line station) is more valid than the actual distance you live from London. It would be so nice if all children could be give the same chances no matter where they live and to be tutored while in town but sadly I believe the funding for this is an issue especially when in their view they could just as easily cast a child who lives closer.
I hope this helps.
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by francescasmum »

What if the child is homeschooled, then they wouldn't have to be 'up for school' ther next day!
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by emi's mum »

I would have thought that should make a difference. Surely? You home school don't you?
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by jojo_b »

I agree that homeschooling should be taken into account. I live a similar distance from london as Flosmum and my DH works in London, so I know its possible to do.

With a lot of castings and jobs moving to Manchester, it actually makes things worse for us as it would take so much longer to get there and would be unfeasible. DS had an audition in Manchester recently at 10am on a Saturday and the only way to get there by train was to go the night before, yet we could get London before 7am if we had to.
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by mathsmum »

Flosmom wrote:And it seems important to have more than one means of transport so if the trains are out you can get the bus and if the bus isn't running you can drive. How many different transport options should there be? And is it different inside London than outside? For example, London relies heavily on the Tube and if the tube is struggling for some reason it's almost impossible to get anywhere by road as they get congested very quickly.
most within-the-m25 areas have a train/overground alternative to the tube

and if you came in from outside, you would still have to get from the mainline station to the theatre by some sort of transport (victoria to billy elliot excepted)
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by TalyaB »

We live outside the M25, but our train link is good so that we can be in the West End in 45 minutes - less time than it used to take when I lived at the end of the Northern line. Whenever we've applied for things that specify 'within the M25' I've clearly stated the above, and never been penalised. However, DS is currently in Matilda the musical, and the late nights are tiring without a longer commute at the end of it. Similarly, for most of the children's roles, they don't have standbys in the theatre, and we have been called in at very short notice to cover if another child is sick. As the children can't work day in day out, if anyone is ill for more than a day, the cover is shared, so everyone playing each part has to be able to get to the theatre quickly. Also, they continue to rehearse throughout the run, so often when they're scheduled to be on in the evening, they're actually at the theatre from mid-afternoon, which means leaving school early. If our journey was longer, he'd be missing even more school than he is already.
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by Fruitcake »

Hmmmmm........interesting debate.

I can totally see why there is a restriction put on this, for last minute cover etc, but, as I think has already been said, it should be on ability to get to theatre within an accepted length of time, not down to a line on a map. [-X

I know some shows (eg Matilda, MP) have stand bys in the theatre, but there is still the odd occasion when, say, a stand by is ill and another child has to be called in at short notice, so it is always going to be an issue. Luckily, some of these major roles (eg Jane and Michael Banks, Oliver/Dodger, Billy/Michael) are accommodated and tutored in London, which means they can live anywhere (I believe there was an Oliver who lived in Scotland and would fly down to London???).

However, I will say that exceptions can, have and will be made so it's always worth asking! ;)
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Re: is your DC affected by M25 requirement for London roles?

Post by WendyB »

I know people who've had West End roles and live way outside the M25. They were exhausted but still go for auditions and would do it all over again (not sure their parents would be quite so keen).
Jo Hawes website states a limit of 45 miles, which does still include us, but I'm not sure it would be good for DS. I can't say I agree with the rule because I'd like to have to option if we thought Ds could cope. If your's can and you're happy then it should be your choice, surely?
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