Mental health in performing arts

A place to talk about full time schools and post 16 training.

Moderator: busybusybusy

lotsolaffs
BAFTA Award
Posts: 520
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:22 pm

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by lotsolaffs »

I have found this whole thread quite sad. Sad that this poor girl had no option but to do what she did, sad that it is very close to home for many of you,sad that some may have made the original poster feel bad - sometimes when writing you just type what comes into your head!
Any awareness is good I hope most colleges have embraced #time4change.
MTA are you at Move It this year?
bethjaneg
BRIT Award
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by bethjaneg »

It is fantastic seeing the efforts of MTA at addressing this. I feel compelled to add to this discussion after speaking to a young student of mine. She is currently doing the audition rounds and suffered a humiliating experience at one of the universities offering MT. In front of the entire room she was told “well you have clearly eaten too much over Christmas”. The impact a comment like that can make to a 17 year old girl is frightening. She was devastated and it has knocked her confidence no end. There were other comments made that i won’t go into here but I have urged her to complain to the university. I’m hoping action will be taken (she wasn’t the only one spoken to negatively) as this was to a room of auditonees. Lord knows what this woman says to the actual students.
theMTAonline
BRIT Award
Posts: 88
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:07 pm

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by theMTAonline »

lotsolaffs wrote:I have found this whole thread quite sad. Sad that this poor girl had no option but to do what she did, sad that it is very close to home for many of you,sad that some may have made the original poster feel bad - sometimes when writing you just type what comes into your head!
Any awareness is good I hope most colleges have embraced #time4change.
MTA are you at Move It this year?
Hi
No we never do Move It - it's all part of our policy not to spend the students' money on excess marketing, so we just advertise predominantly using social media as it's free. I'll quickly add that that's no judgement on any other college being there, it's just our policy. I'll put a tweet out now though with the colleges and companies who are currently signed up for #time4change so that you can see. It's an encouraging number, and I have to say that the colleges that are on the list are doing some great work attempting to address the stigma and the growing problem. I would say again though that parents reading this thread - please do read the Charter. Very often we can miss symptoms of mental illness and put them down to teenage angst - the charter is there to inform everybody. I'm with you though 'lotsolaffs' this is a good thread as it highlights the topic and starts a discussion about a difficult issue, which can only ever be a good thing.
Last edited by theMTAonline on Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
lotsolaffs
BAFTA Award
Posts: 520
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:22 pm

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by lotsolaffs »

Great, thank you!
jennifer1972
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:34 pm

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by jennifer1972 »

bethjaneg wrote:It is fantastic seeing the efforts of MTA at addressing this. I feel compelled to add to this discussion after speaking to a young student of mine. She is currently doing the audition rounds and suffered a humiliating experience at one of the universities offering MT. In front of the entire room she was told “well you have clearly eaten too much over Christmas”. The impact a comment like that can make to a 17 year old girl is frightening. She was devastated and it has knocked her confidence no end. There were other comments made that i won’t go into here but I have urged her to complain to the university. I’m hoping action will be taken (she wasn’t the only one spoken to negatively) as this was to a room of auditonees. Lord knows what this woman says to the actual students.
Goodness! I cannot believe that! Too right she should complain. A comment like that can last a lifetime! She should be named and shamed :x
User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 359
Joined: Tue May 04, 2004 4:14 pm
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by admin »

I am a dreadful administrator I missed this thread until just now I'm sorry. Can I firstly say I won't take the thread down. I thing frank, kind and open discussion is always the best way to go and as has been said on this thread more awareness of mental health issues is clearly needed.

Please have a look at the Time for change thread its there for all to see and NAPM is a big supporter of this great initiative. The performing arts world is particularly cruel in some ways as looks can play a huge part in the casting process and some of our auditioning norms I think can be brutal such as the open auditions and public cuts of applicants (even young children), which have the potential to do great damage to an individuals self worth. (Maybe some part of explaining the higher than average figures within the profession).

The more we talk the better and if anyone has even the slightest reason to think a young person is becoming unhappy or even unwell please don't delay early intervention plays a big part.

Please feel free to continue this debate/discussion all I ask is it is done in the spirit of this site supportively and respectful of each others views.
Hope Never Dies....
paulears
BAFTA Award
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:01 am

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by paulears »

While that comment about having eaten too much at Christmas - I'm afraid I actually support honest and truthful comment like this. If a 17 yr old is upset by this for it to last a lifetime they are unsuitable for work in this industry. I'm sorry - but compared with comments in the real world they need to suck it up and consider the comment. Clearly - that person believes what they say, and of course presumably they noticed. If this was a casting director, they would think the same thing and that person would not be picked. If they're a bit bigger than usual in a way that is obvious, they need to know, and in real life people don't take them somewhere private, they do it publicly. If people cannot cope with this - how do they deal with screaming directors or the inevitable cat fights in dressing g rooms where words are cutting to the extreme? Toughen up. 17 is old enough to have the ability to deal with this. The notion of complaining makes me laugh - they are not amateurs or babies - they're young adults who should have the ability to understand why these things get said. I know I'm getting fat - yesterday they attempted to squeeze me into a costume to cover a scene - I didn't fit. I was told I was fat and had got fatter during panto. 'Tis true. If I waited for respect, or a gentler way of telling me, the boss, that I was not going to be able to do it - I'd have waited for ever. Please do not treat young dancers in a way they will not be treated on their first professional contract - which is not that far away. If they are a bit coddled, then they need uncoiling fast.

If you complain about this - you are singling your child out as having a troublesome parent. Your complain will be understood, smiled at and filed. In fact - I hear far worse comments from the best dance school in my area, who always scream at the kids, single them out as being the 'worst dancer' and their success rate is pretty high.

A dancers career is determined by their shape as well as ability - everyone knows this, and the kids need to know it too!
RoseTowers4
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 282
Joined: Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:37 pm

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by RoseTowers4 »

Paulears - No. With respect I absolutely disagree.
lotsolaffs
BAFTA Award
Posts: 520
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:22 pm

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by lotsolaffs »

I would rather my DD tell anyone to stick their university up their arse if they made a comment like that and walk right out.
I would have at 17,problem is people are too polite these days,apart from the person who made that comment. Also please name the uni so I can prepare my DD accordingly .
jaybeeyellow
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:54 pm

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by jaybeeyellow »

I also disagree.
At 17 a young person is not mature enough to deal with such comments, nor should they have to. It is not acceptable for anybody to speak to others in such a hurtful and personal manner. What next? Is it acceptable to tell a young woman that she is not pretty enough to play /dance certain parts?
I am afraid that the attitudes promoted by Paulears verge on bullying and emotional abuse. This is a topic that has not really raised its head on this thread, but I can tell you bullying in Dance and Drama schools is a big problem.
I speak from personal experience, but will say no more.
bethjaneg
BRIT Award
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 1:29 pm

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by bethjaneg »

I sadly agree with Paulears that this reflects some (not all but some) of the attitudes in the industry, I do not feel it is ok to accept it as the norm. I graduated from a top performing arts college in 93. Abuse of power was rife - emotional, sexual you name it. In the light of recent events in the industry this is now looked on as deplorable. So is humiliating a girl who has paid to audition at a university. It was an abuse of power. As I said in my post, the woman in question made nasty remarks and belittled numerous people in the room. Just because something is the norm does not make it acceptable. The industry has to make attempts to move with the times.

Interestingly the girl in question was offered a place at this establishment which she will be telling them to shove up their backsides. She is lucky to have offers elsewhere at much better schools. The place in question was a bit of a “final space on the ucas form” from now on I will encourage all my auditioning students to avoid it like the plague.
paulears
BAFTA Award
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:01 am

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by paulears »

What happened to toughening people up to be able to take the slings and arrows? Wanting the industry they are training to join to be nice and 'ist' free is a wonderful idea, and while perhaps it is getting better in some ways, we're in danger of not preparing people for the real world, where people don't have time or the inclination to always be nice. Somebody of 17 is mature enough to get married, get pregnant, pay taxes - but not mature enough to be told they are fat? (Or have got fatter). Should we train people for work by reflecting the world as it really is, or by being outraged that somebody had the nerve to be honest? Do we say honestly to the students "That was the most terrible performance I've seen in ten years - simply dreadful" or do we tell them it was really good, but here are a few things we need to improve?

I'm afraid I really don't want the industry to stop being honest. I'd much prefer auditionees to be told the truth. You didn't get the part because you have a dreadful accent, or a dreadful twitch, or any of the real life reasons. Trouble is, we're getting more uncomfy at being honest because of the fear of disgruntled rejectees citing some reason that's 'ist' in some way.

If a young person wants to act - then shape is less important. Fat people are always in demand because in real life people are always different to the 'perfection' objective. Nobody wants a fat dancer. It's very sad when you see a really nice dancer who is just too big, and nobody has mentioned it. I often wonder if they really know, but just ignore it, or are genuinely in the dark. Setting people up to fail is disgraceful. A uni with integrity surely has to be better than one who take anyone irrespective of the possibility of success and a long career?
jaybeeyellow
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 110
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:54 pm

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by jaybeeyellow »

Unfortunately though, Paulears too many institutions, casting directors etc use this notion of "toughening up" as a means to bully young people, who are not able to cope with such treatment, and as I have already stated why should they be able to cope with such negativity at a young age? I t would appear that the situation which has prompted this discussion involves a young person being spoken to harshly at an audition. This is a hugely different situation to a graduate being rejected at an audition for similar reasons. Presumably if said auditionee was too fat, they wouldn't get in, so why bother saying it?
I admit that my experience concerns Acting more than Dance . I detest this notion of toughening up. It is nothing of the sort. It is bullying, emotional abuse and misuse of power.
I have seen this happen to somebody close to me at one of the most prestigious Drama Schools in the country. It is shocking. For the person concerned it has resulted in Mental Health problems and a complete loss of confidence and self esteem.
In my opinion any teacher should think very carefully before they attempt to "toughen up "a young, impressionable person. They have no idea of the damage they may cause.
jennifer1972
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 462
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:34 pm

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by jennifer1972 »

paulears wrote:What happened to toughening people up to be able to take the slings and arrows? Wanting the industry they are training to join to be nice and 'ist' free is a wonderful idea, and while perhaps it is getting better in some ways, we're in danger of not preparing people for the real world, where people don't have time or the inclination to always be nice. Somebody of 17 is mature enough to get married, get pregnant, pay taxes - but not mature enough to be told they are fat? (Or have got fatter). Should we train people for work by reflecting the world as it really is, or by being outraged that somebody had the nerve to be honest? Do we say honestly to the students "That was the most terrible performance I've seen in ten years - simply dreadful" or do we tell them it was really good, but here are a few things we need to improve?

I'm afraid I really don't want the industry to stop being honest. I'd much prefer auditionees to be told the truth. You didn't get the part because you have a dreadful accent, or a dreadful twitch, or any of the real life reasons. Trouble is, we're getting more uncomfy at being honest because of the fear of disgruntled rejectees citing some reason that's 'ist' in some way.

If a young person wants to act - then shape is less important. Fat people are always in demand because in real life people are always different to the 'perfection' objective. Nobody wants a fat dancer. It's very sad when you see a really nice dancer who is just too big, and nobody has mentioned it. I often wonder if they really know, but just ignore it, or are genuinely in the dark. Setting people up to fail is disgraceful. A uni with integrity surely has to be better than one who take anyone irrespective of the possibility of success and a long career?
What you say is true but there are ways and ways of saying things. Humiliating someone in front of a group of peers is just wrong. Honesty is great, take them to one side, have a quiet word if the need is there, but there is no place for public humiliation at a paid audition!
Robin64
BAFTA Award
Posts: 506
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:49 pm

Re: Mental health in performing arts

Post by Robin64 »

Far better at open day / audition stage or better still at earlier training for a leader to make a general statement on the lines of..."if you want to be a professional dancer you will be expected to be VERY fit and healthy (I don't even think size or shape need to be mentioned) as would any professional sportsperson. Keeping fit and eating healthily can help achieve this, you will need to think about this carefully if you want to train for this career".

I also agree that pointing out anything physical about an individual in a public arena is unnecessary and unwelcome. Maybe it is how things have been done before (by some - not all) but that doesn't make it right and leaders / tutors need to develop their awareness. They would not (I sincerely hope) make comments about other physical appearance / disability etc which might have happened in the past. That whole "shaming" thing is not professional - times change, children are no longer caned in school, women are speaking up about harrassment and yes, young people are probably more mentally vulnerable so update interactions to show awareness of this.

At school a couple of teachers belittled my daughter in front of the class because of the difficulties she had due to dyslexia. I made it clear to her that it was them who had a problem not her!
Reality is also that there is some "tough love" still offered at training colleges so resilience is needed and I don't strongly disagree with this happening as long as it is within reason.

On a slightly different point. Schools/colleges do need to get their act together about the food and snacks offered to young people. In the main it is still very poor with fizzy drink and chocolate/crisp vending machines etc still there.

Not making it clear about fitness for our MT hopefuls does not give them optimum chance when competing for places at competitive colleges. DD went to a non specialist FE college for a BTEC and they didn't do enough physical activity eg proper hard warm ups / circuits / limbering etc
Very many of the students were not at peak fitness shall we say. Even DD who is not particularly overweight said she realised she was not fit and strong enough last year when she auditioned and has addressed this over this year. They also need to address mental well-being too - why not include yoga, mindfulness or suchlike.
It isn't about coddling young people but treating them respectfully and providing the right tools for future physical and mental health. That includes making it absolutely clear that part of the "qualifications" to get you into professional training is a professional attitude to your body which is your tool. That means fit not skinny or one particular prescribed shape.
Sorry if I have gone off topic a bit.

Can I just say that I am desperately sad about the tragedy spoken of earlier in this discussion. I offer condolences to family and friends.
Post Reply