Performers College Degree Course

A place to talk about full time schools and post 16 training.

Moderator: busybusybusy

islandofsodor
OSCAR Award
Posts: 1162
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:09 pm

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by islandofsodor »

Dance1921 wrote:Well said chilvers61, why would you want your dc to do a degree course where they are going to be one of nearly 200 when they can do a level 6 diploma at other very good colleges and be one of only 70 perhaps 80 and let’s face it having a degree in musical theatre on your cv is not going to get anyone ‘the job’ over someone with just a diploma on theirs ](*,)
Sorry this post has confused me. The college where dd is hoping to go to (she's only 16 so it has to be the diploma) takes approx 30 diploma and 30 degree students per year. They have just built extra facilities to accommodate the extra 30 odd students. From what I know of Performers their degree numbers will be similar. Where has this figure of 200 come from?
Katymac
OSCAR Award
Posts: 1580
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by Katymac »

& I think the colleges offering a degree but that you need to 'top-up' the fees outside of a loan are being disingenuous
chivers61
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by chivers61 »

islandofsodor wrote:
Dance1921 wrote:Well said chilvers61, why would you want your dc to do a degree course where they are going to be one of nearly 200 when they can do a level 6 diploma at other very good colleges and be one of only 70 perhaps 80 and let’s face it having a degree in musical theatre on your cv is not going to get anyone ‘the job’ over someone with just a diploma on theirs ](*,)
Sorry this post has confused me. The college where dd is hoping to go to (she's only 16 so it has to be the diploma) takes approx 30 diploma and 30 degree students per year. They have just built extra facilities to accommodate the extra 30 odd students. From what I know of Performers their degree numbers will be similar. Where has this figure of 200 come from?
I haven't mentioned 200. The gist of my point is that once degree funding is in place there is I'm theory no limit on how many students you take other than facilities and that can be remedied over time. I referred to Bird and Urdang where the intake is I am told around 160.

I now worry even more if DaDa goes. That would mean every college would need to have SFE funding and the lid would come off numbers as there is no cap. The numbers in training would be eye-watering.

Also with respect to the comment above about any degree opening up opportunities I fear that is not so. Most informed employers see an MT degree (and many other similar degrees) for what they are. A vocational qualification dressed up as an academic one. It is no coincidence that most of the MT BA's are accredited by Unis which are way down the league tables.

But in the final analysis I wholeheartedly agree that the current funding system is not fit for purpose and does no favours to those who don't qualify for a hefty DaDa and can't get a degree place.
Munchpot
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:13 pm

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by Munchpot »

From what I've been told by Performers and others who have spoken to them the numbers will not be that high

I understand your point that it 'could lift the lid' on increasing numbers. Then again I believe reputable colleges will have the facilities and staff to take on those numbers (Should it happen) My eldest attends a Uni where her particular Bio-Science course takes on a few hundred every year and yet in the specialisms within that she is taught in groups of 9 as they have the staff numbers and facilities for it. Maybe that's how those colleges will work.

I also agree the whole issue of funding needs to be reviewed. Whether a DADA for Diploma or a SFE loan for Degree the system still takes into account Household Income, not Household Expenses. I think credit should be given to Performers for going down the route with Chichester so that the fees are £9250 which can be fully funded by SFE, unlike other courses where they charge £12k and you can only access a max of £6k through SFE
chivers61
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 102
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:10 pm

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by chivers61 »

Munchpot wrote:From what I've been told by Performers and others who have spoken to them the numbers will not be that high

I understand your point that it 'could lift the lid' on increasing numbers. Then again I believe reputable colleges will have the facilities and staff to take on those numbers (Should it happen) My eldest attends a Uni where her particular Bio-Science course takes on a few hundred every year and yet in the specialisms within that she is taught in groups of 9 as they have the staff numbers and facilities for it. Maybe that's how those colleges will work.

I also agree the whole issue of funding needs to be reviewed. Whether a DADA for Diploma or a SFE loan for Degree the system still takes into account Household Income, not Household Expenses. I think credit should be given to Performers for going down the route with Chichester so that the fees are £9250 which can be fully funded by SFE, unlike other courses where they charge £12k and you can only access a max of £6k through SFE
I do hope you're right Munchpot. I do think that the reputable colleges will manage it sensibly in the main. Having small class sizes is not difficult. You just need enough staff and enough rooms. The issue is more complex when it comes to students getting representation. It would be Intersting to hear how Bird and Urdang cope and make sure all students get a fair crack of the whip given they're all paying the same. Having multiple showcase events, each one with a different cast is a solution, but do agents really turn up to several shows at one college when there are so many other colleges to fit in!

Totally agree about gross income being a totally inappropriate measure.
paulears
BAFTA Award
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:01 am

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by paulears »

If you include household expenses, then there would be a need to itemise them. I have two sons, one is permanently poor, the other much less so despite similar incomes. It would be unfair to give one a lead over the other because one is a saver and spends less, while the other has lots of monthly regular outgoings that are a lifestyle choice. `How would anyone assess this? The only fair way would be total income and you buy your Netflix, Sky, mobile and other stuff if you have anything left? I realise some people live in more expensive housing, or in more expensive parts of the country - but why should somebody in a better paid part of the country have a benefit others don't get. All the people with London allowances would then be treated less fairly than somebody else?

Gross income makes huge sense because if it was any different system, people would have to declare everything - so the amount spent on 'luxuries' could be removed from the calculation. I don't suppose either system is quite right. The alternative is to do standards assessments - judge people at 17/18 on their ability, and those that pass a threshold, get higher education, and those that show less ability don't.

Frankly everyone is suffering because of this crazy notion that everyone can have a Higher Education place, even if they end up with terrible results. I'm certain we all know people at the nice places who genuinely do not deserve to be there, and will never work in the industry. The unis fill up, take the funding and if these people don't do any work, they still have most of the money!
islandofsodor
OSCAR Award
Posts: 1162
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:09 pm

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by islandofsodor »

I'm currently in the process of filling in financial forms for both DaDa initial self declaration & school bursary. DaDa appears to be purely income based & doesn't ask for details of any savings, ISA's etc but equally it takes no account of other children/dependents.

The school on the other hand want to know equity in your property, bank account balances but they do take into consideration if you have other children & if you are paying fees for them.
amo185
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 295
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:20 am

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by amo185 »

I think a positive outcome of purely degree courses could be that young people would have to have a higher level of formal education and be older when they apply - and are mature enough to cope with the pressures - not just swept away by the dream of performing in the west end when auditioning at 15. Also, more crucially, it would then be possible for students who are offered places ( based on talent and potential to succeed in the industry) to actually take up those places rather than forfeit them to those lower on the list who are more able to pay. Yes, there's paperwork involved but a well-trained mind assists that well-trained body and colleges will cope with the demands on their side. And there are many successful degree courses out there with excellent employment rates in the industry. Have to add though that what I don't understand is if a 16 year old can do a degree on a ballet course, why can't that be available from 16 for MT?

Also those at vocational schools from 11 (or younger) are already at an advantage when it comes to diploma courses aged 16 not just due to the amount of intensive training they've already had but also because of the reputation of the places where they've trained.
As the colleges are all different and with their own (sometimes hidden) criteria, it's certainly makes sense that some youngsters really can't see themselves at certain places and know it's not for them or know they wouldn't get in.
For our part, we are really pleased to see Performers is offering a degree. My dd really enjoyed their Easter course, thought the teaching was good and loved the facilities (just didn't like the location and heard that a good proportion have a car to travel in as the area around is not that nice.) But at least it becomes attainable if she's good enough to get in. We have three years so we can watch how things develop (and in the meantime organise our 16-18 provision). I do agree though that the training industry and the industry itself is indeed saturated - but that isn't stopping out young people from wanting to get a place! And won't stop us being 100% behind them.
Munchpot
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:13 pm

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by Munchpot »

paulears wrote:If you include household expenses, then there would be a need to itemise them. I have two sons, one is permanently poor, the other much less so despite similar incomes. It would be unfair to give one a lead over the other because one is a saver and spends less, while the other has lots of monthly regular outgoings that are a lifestyle choice. `How would anyone assess this? The only fair way would be total income and you buy your Netflix, Sky, mobile and other stuff if you have anything left? I realise some people live in more expensive housing, or in more expensive parts of the country - but why should somebody in a better paid part of the country have a benefit others don't get. All the people with London allowances would then be treated less fairly than somebody else?

Gross income makes huge sense because if it was any different system, people would have to declare everything - so the amount spent on 'luxuries' could be removed from the calculation. I don't suppose either system is quite right. The alternative is to do standards assessments - judge people at 17/18 on their ability, and those that pass a threshold, get higher education, and those that show less ability don't.

Frankly everyone is suffering because of this crazy notion that everyone can have a Higher Education place, even if they end up with terrible results. I'm certain we all know people at the nice places who genuinely do not deserve to be there, and will never work in the industry. The unis fill up, take the funding and if these people don't do any work, they still have most of the money!
But the point I was trying to make was, for example, if you had a household income of £60k and one child your ability to fund a course would likely be far greater than if you had the same income but 4 kids.
performmum
BRIT Award
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:32 pm

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by performmum »

My DD has just finished 3 year Trinity Diploma at performers and is just going in to her first major professional contract.
The training that they get is outstanding, and their faculty are all either currently working or have a good
Pedigree In the industry. Hours are long and the students are pushed.
The college is purpose built and has its own gym.
I would doubt that they would be able to
increase the intake hugely as accommodation in the area is very limited ( & whilst not expensive, some of it is not good ). When my DD started they had said that the 3 year plan was to build student accommodation, they had acquired land to do this, but there has been no sign of this happening. The area isn’t great, there is not a lot of infrastructure, buses and taxis are cheap enough though.
Students tend to form a very close bond because there is nothing to do outside of college. So there are lots of house parties and social functions. So if you want you DDs and DS to go somewhere where there are few distractions from the course then this would suit!
Hope this helps :D
Robin64
BAFTA Award
Posts: 506
Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:49 pm

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by Robin64 »

I agree with munchpot, its not about Netflix it's more if you are supporting other children at uni or training which is not taken into consideration but makes it very hard. On a middle income you are supposed (according to facts unearthed by martin Lewes - look on his website) to contribute £3-4, 000 for a student so if you have 3 kids that is a big amount to find each year. That is not taken into account with dadas. It wouldn't be that hard to account for supporting other kids in education or training on a form.
paulears
BAFTA Award
Posts: 796
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:01 am

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by paulears »

Munchpot wrote:
But the point I was trying to make was, for example, if you had a household income of £60k and one child your ability to fund a course would likely be far greater than if you had the same income but 4 kids.
Yes - I see your point, but children are an expenditure too, and while nice to have, if you have more children it is a choice. We're all poorer in money when we have them, but richer in happiness. To somebody who has one child that they have to 100% fund it must seem very odd to see somebody else on the same income get assistance?
Katymac
OSCAR Award
Posts: 1580
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:54 pm

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by Katymac »

As a younger woman I intended to have 4 children; god/nature decided I would only have 1

But if I had even 2 children DD would not be where she is today - we would never have afforded the time or expense of 'out of school' stuff for 2 children, Brownies/Swimming would have been it!
Munchpot
GRAMMY Award
Posts: 285
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:13 pm

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by Munchpot »

performmum wrote:My DD has just finished 3 year Trinity Diploma at performers and is just going in to her first major professional contract.
The training that they get is outstanding, and their faculty are all either currently working or have a good
Pedigree In the industry. Hours are long and the students are pushed.
The college is purpose built and has its own gym.
I would doubt that they would be able to
increase the intake hugely as accommodation in the area is very limited ( & whilst not expensive, some of it is not good ). When my DD started they had said that the 3 year plan was to build student accommodation, they had acquired land to do this, but there has been no sign of this happening. The area isn’t great, there is not a lot of infrastructure, buses and taxis are cheap enough though.
Students tend to form a very close bond because there is nothing to do outside of college. So there are lots of house parties and social functions. So if you want you DDs and DS to go somewhere where there are few distractions from the course then this would suit!
Hope this helps :D
Thanks Performmum that's a great insight. Performers, whether degree or funded diploma, is high on my DD's list for next year so will bear that in mind
lotsolaffs
BAFTA Award
Posts: 520
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:22 pm

Re: Performers College Degree Course

Post by lotsolaffs »

Is it the case that a college offering a degree for the first time can only take a certain number of students in the first year?
Only something I heard.
Post Reply