Is this commonplace ?!

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scottishdancer00
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Is this commonplace ?!

Post by scottishdancer00 »

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.sevent ... g-college/

I'm not how to make a hyperlink so you might have to copy and paste the address to read the article but is the body shaming at colleges at the level this girl describes ?? I obviously understand that having a nice body is very important in the performing world but I am at the top top percentile for a healthy weight after a few years struggling with bulimia which ironically made me put on SO much weight . I'm getting better now and losing weight but I won't be skinny by college and I don't think mentally I could handle getting weighed in front of everyone every month . Surely what this article describes isn't normal ? I'm very worried for applying to college now
islandofsodor
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by islandofsodor »

Well the article is American. I'm fairly sure that type of thing is not the norm. However I have heard recently of a couple of places telling already very thin girls to lose weight. One girl left to join a different college where this doesn't happen.

Getting weighed in front of everyone is not something I've ever heard of here. At dd's school they are weighed by a physio as part of a general healthy dancer screening programme.
chivers61
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by chivers61 »

The only time I've heard about fat shaming is that it happened apparently in the hideous Stage School reality show which is filmed at D&B.
RosaMac
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by RosaMac »

A couple were told to loose weight at my daughters old college last year and in previous years I believe.
paulears
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by paulears »

There is a reality here that everyone nowadays seems to have trouble - we have double standards.

If you are casting a show, then your dancers for all styles really, not talking just ballet - need to fit the jelly mould. Too many people nowadays are fat, me very much included. We're not allowed to call people by their body shapes any longer - we dream up excuses for when people don't get roles. You're not quite what we were looking for has been a good excuse for years, but it's rare for anyone to be honest and say what it was they were looking for?

If the subject in that story was over a stone overweight, then it depends if she is 20lbs over the top limit, the average or some other limit, maybe they really want bean poles? Only two weeks ago a dancer, now in her 30s (one of my old students) told me the tales from abroad where weight was absolutely the key issue with not just getting the next contract, but not losing the current one.

I don't think anyone says that thin is best, or average is best, but appearance IS a vital factor for an industry based on what you look like, which often comes before what you can do!

You actually see this here too in the dance schools. One dance school has all slim ballet types, but another has a much wider range of body shapes, and frankly, if I had to say which school 'looks' more professional, serious, standards heavy and ready for the industry, then it would be the slim one. If people are over whatever currently passes for the average, they often look wrong on stage, the audience's eyes being drawn to the ones outside the jelly mould. So you pick out the stick insect and the oompalumpa. If you happen to be the one who stands out, then you could believe that we are all individuals and shape shouldn't matter, but the fact is that you do stand out, for the wrong reasons. Nowadays, every aspect of casting is in the spotlight. Age, sex, ethnicity, weight plus even spots, tattoos, piercings and flat feet.

We pretend to be open, but the real world simply isn't. If you cast a show for something thought provoking like maybe shows set in the terror camps of WW2, then you select skinny people. If you cast a different stranded show, you may need people all overweight, but if you cast a conventional show, convention dictates the size of the dancers. I suspect that based on the photographs of most prestigious dance schools final projects, there has to be some control taking place. People have a right to be any size they want, but compliance to unpublished, but well known guidelines is a kind of gatekeeping that I'm sure takes place in all sorts of dance and drama organisations.

Do a search of Royal Ballet cast photos on Google. See any members of the company who look outside of the jellymould, male or female? My assumption would be that body shape and weight might be somewhat limited? The girl who is a stone and a half overweight in America seems to have two choices. Go somewhere less rigid, or lose the weight. I doubt she can stay her weight and stay on the course.
dancemom43
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by dancemom43 »

What do you think about height ? My DD just started an MT Degree and us only about 5’ 2” obviously no chance for things like 42nd street
Katymac
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by Katymac »

DD is mixed and this week at college (with only a couple of non-white students each year) the white students were complaining that there were too many 'black' parts in the west end........

It's all about if you 'fit - whether it's size, height, hair colour, ethnicity, whatever
lotsolaffs
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by lotsolaffs »

Going to Move It gives you a good idea,it is quite obvious that some schools and colleges favour different body types which is great as that can mean somewhere for everyone.
You can also see that males too are required to look a certain way.
paulears
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by paulears »

If you look at the jobs, there are always the special roles where any deviation from the jelly mould can be good, and I guess if you look at TV characters in soaps, the memorable ones are always the non-conformist ones and you remember them, so it's possible to argue that the people outside the jellymould are more likely to get featured roles, leaving the ensemble as the big blob of sameness? Acting schools seem so much more open than dance ones, because the aim of a dance school doing mainly ensemble work is to view the performers with your glasses off and see excellence in 'the whole', while acting is firmly glasses on, close up viewing.
Robin64
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by Robin64 »

lotsolaffs wrote:Going to Move It gives you a good idea,it is quite obvious that some schools and colleges favour different body types which is great as that can mean somewhere for everyone.
You can also see that males too are required to look a certain way.
Now I am curious which college favours what type! I haven't been to move it and haven't a clue. Might save time and money when auditions come round again! Obviously I have heard royal ballet school go for very slim but apart from that I don't know about the MT colleges. Anyone willing to say their theories for the colleges? :-) Might it just be that students adopt a college look or style after being there a while? New to us at auditions last year was the make up thing. Definitely saw red lipstick being a thing and it seemed some places liked make up some didn't so much.
esmum
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by esmum »

Dd will be applying for Colleges, possibly next year - and although she has danced since she was 6 - she is definitely above the 'normal weight' well, she is a size 12 to 14 and 5 feet 2. Once puberty kicked in it happened all of a sudden - I was so very worried, I thought it would limit her, in her aspirations to perform. Thankfully her singing and acting is really strong - or so we get told lol (She was chosen as an All Star performer by the MTI adjudicators from NYC, at their European Inauguration back in March for her performance) She has had a lot of local lead roles, performed in a West End UK Tour as a soloist (she was a tiny cutie then though) But we would be kidding ourselves if we thought this would get her into any of the dance colleges. Triple threat she is not - but she can certainly dance very well. I have pondered, worried about the weight issue - we openly talked about losing roles because of this but ultimately, health and mental health surrounding weight is more important to me, for her. Also size 12 to 14? Come on! Guess those that do fit the norm are more likely to get regular work in ensemble. So she will have to work hard on celebrating being different - or lose weight. I know what I would prefer :D Good luck to everyone applying.
lotsolaffs
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by lotsolaffs »

Stella Mann had all shapes and heights. Italia Conti didn't. All I can say was this was on the day I went to Move It. Maybe it was just a coincidence on the day. Urdang have asked for height and weight on their application AVT course.
I can thoroughly recommend Move It we will be booking tickets as soon as we can.
Fullmoon
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by Fullmoon »

Slightly off topic but talking of Stella Mann does anybody know how much ballet content there is/they do? DD going to the Open Day and they're doing commercial and contemporary, but no ballet....
theMTAonline
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by theMTAonline »

If you're looking at colleges that specialise in dance then size is an issue. There are several colleges in the UK that still take quite a strict view on this, and indeed some DO weigh you very early on.
If you're looking at acting courses then it doesn't make any difference at all - there are parts for all shapes and sizes.
Musical Theatre sits somewhere in the middle. We are in an industry where you are selling a product, and that product is essentially 'you'. With so much competition colleges have to be realistic with students and inform them what 'look' (based on their other skillsets) would work the best for them. A responsible college will also help you to achieve that look.
If we had an exceptionally strong dancer, who was also a stunning soprano (for example), we would recommend that they conform a certain way in order to give themselves the best chance to work. The difference is though that they're told this very early on. That way there's lots of time to lose (or sometimes it's even put on weight) in a controlled way WITH nutritionist support if necessary. Like most colleges we are lucky to have a nutritionist attached to the college, so that our students are supported to be healthy first and then encouraged to work out where they need to go next. Whether big or small being fit has to be the first aim.
This is a minefield of a discussion, and all colleges should tread really carefully with it. Weight can often be tied into esteem, there might be a reason why an individual can't lose weight even though they believe that they'd like to. Some people would just look ill if they were a certain size.
Mental Health and emotional support should buffer these discussions. It's striking (and sad) that no dance college has (as yet) signed up for #time4change
2dancersmum
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Re: Is this commonplace ?!

Post by 2dancersmum »

I take a slightly different slant on the aspect of size for dancers. My DD applied to ballet schools and dance colleges and our experience was that it was body proportions as much as anything for dance. Long legs, shorter body - that sort of thing - a body type. We do know of dancers of a wide range of heights getting places in ballet schools. Go onto the dance colleges and the range of body types and sizes increases, still a wide range in heights and the range increases again for MT. I know a lot of the colleges do weigh their students - but not in a room in front of everyone and not on a regular basis - more as part of a yearly healthy dancer check. DD had the one teacher who would tell students to lose weight - leotards are rather unforgiving - but generally speaking the emphasis was always on health and healthy eating. The same teacher would also have a quiet word if she noticed a student losing weight to see why and make sure they were eating enough.

As for after graduation and entering the working world. Leaving acting aside as I know nothing about that aspect, but auditions and castings will often specify height and sometimes size in the brief, often asking for slim well toned dancers for example and asking for form fitting clothing to be worn. Yet I know plenty of singers and dancers working for cruise ships for example, who are only 5'2" tall yet their companies advertised for 5'4" min height. They need a cast to go together - particularly for the dancers and for partner work when height and weight do matter. For singers again a lot more variety. It always depends what a casting team are looking for - and obviously that can change - sometimes during the course of auditions and sometimes with a knock on effect for the casting of other roles.
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